Curse

Shanaeri Rynale · Mar 15, 2007, 08:45 AM // 08:45

The issues surrounding the mesmer class in PvE have i think been identified here very well and being honest have been known to most experienced mesmer players for sometime.

The real question is, is how in heck does Anet balance the class between PvP and PvE? Having a huge armor ignoring or mass aoe shutdown skill would create havoc in PvP, and yet may well be the one thing that finally breaks the stigma(in the general populations eyes) of taking a mes.

As much as we would like to see the skill sets of mobs changed(why are there very few decent monster monks for example) or behavoir reworked I'm not sure that this will ever happen. The real chance Anet have of doing this is in hard mode, but my gut feel that will be higher levels, more monster only skills/env effects and less time to complete the mission. Changing skill sets of every mob in the game(including those in explorables) is an enormous amount of work and in all honesty not one I feel Anet would do just for one class. It's what PvE needs, but i'm not sure it's what PvE will get,

So if PvP needs outweigh PvE(not going into that one, it's just the way it is atm) and a complete skill rework of every mob in the game is in my view unlikely, what other options are there.

Just changing skills to do something different, making them more 'useful' may not be enough; we have the PvP factor to consider remember. Maybe a complete attribute line overhual would be the way ahead?

Doing the above and moving skills to and from attribiute lines could enable balance to be achieved. Moving some skills into the say fast casting line may just be a more subtle way of achieving this, as to take a PvP overpowered build is made harder due to attribute splits but useful spells can still be used in PvE.

The final option could be to create some PvE mesmer only skills, sunspears and light bringers get their own skills, so why not mesmers, assasins, and the other underclasses of class have them. let us rampage with AoE shutdowns, damage in PvE but deny those in PvP.

I know Anet have said that they won't split PvP and pvE skills, and thats the correct choice. There is no point in having two version of backfire for example. But they have set the precident for PvE only skills and this may well form part of the answer. On the other side this would then create a feeling of resentment from the other classes(they get a special skill, why not us)

Certainly the signals from Anet are changing, or more probably being clarfied. A few weeks back Gaile mentioned mesmer buffs and gave the impression that buffs were on the very much om the way. However the other day this message was watered down/clarified

So it maybe the mesmer class wont be changed at all??

In anycase I don't envy Anets job in balancing this, but it is my hope that if they do go ahead with changes they are done in an elegant way that actually benefits the entire game, not just the class.

Just my 2gp

Avarre · Mar 15, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

A few weeks for assessments?

Just about any person who plays the game would already know the issues. ANet can't look at numbers and figures to see the 'situation', because things usually don't work in the game the way they look like they will on paper. They'd be better off just requesting an analysis from the people who play the game. They'd have it within the day, and it would encompass more viewpoints. Hell, they can have mine, free of charge.

I don't wish to be offensive to ANet, but an 'analysis of the situation' is something you maintain and update as the situation develops (especially after you make changes that can create said situation), not something you throw together after you realize there's a problem that needs solving.

antialias02 · Mar 15, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

I know Anet have said that they won't split PvP and pvE skills, and thats the correct choice. There is no point in having two version of backfire for example. But they have set the precident for PvE only skills and this may well form part of the answer. On the other side this would then create a feeling of resentment from the other classes(they get a special skill, why not us)

Actually, Izzy recently mentioned on WoC that he fully expects ANet to explore the realm of more PvE-only skills in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if this is how they answer the "Mesmer dilemma."

Mesmers do well in PvP and any Mesmer worth his (or her) salt will do well in PvE too. It's not exactly the easiest class to play, but I don't think ANet should go out of their way to make them so. In some senses, that's what's fun about playing the class.

I'm not saying changes aren't needed; I'm sure they are. Rather, I'm simply suggesting that the necessary changes may not need to be as drastic as people think. One thing is for certain: ANet is going to have to look long and hard at where they are taking the class as a whole before diving in and making live changes. Furthermore, for all we know, "analysis" probably also involves testing out class revisions on their end, and seeing how well those changes perform. Without actually being on the dev team to see 'behind the curtain,' it's hard to make accusations about the efficiency of their processes.

Although a lot of the suggestions so far are pretty good. I'm curious to see if any of them will make it into the game. Time will tell, I guess.

Oh, yeah, as long as we're on timelines: ANet is a company making money that should be serving their "constituent gamers." But what so few seem to remember is that ArenaNet is a diamond in the rough when it comes to listening to player feedback: we're lucky we're getting an assessment and changes at all. So what if it takes a couple weeks? I've waited this long, I think I can handle a little longer.

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

If pve is about having the 1337est lightbringer comparable skills in the future, I will quit gw.

I LIKE the balanced sort of pve.

GWaddict · Mar 15, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

With my Mesmer i always seem to be doing enough dmg for the team. My skill bar has degen and anti attack (not anti-melee!) Idk if its just my build or what, but i really don't need a change for my char. But thats only speaking for me.

If you wondering my skills are Ineptitude, Images of Remorse, clumsiness & Conjure Phantasm. Works good

antialias02 · Mar 15, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

I don't think future PvE-only skills would be unbalanced - just more common, probably. Though when I think about it, class-specific PvE-only skills would be trippy.... unless, of course, if everybody got some. But even then you start running into the issue that other classes could possibly get awesome stuff, and Mesmers get the shaft.

But at least in that case balance could be addressed for PvE ONLY, without having to worry about how changing skills would mess up PvP.

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Please use my new thread for this discussion. I did not want to get off-topic.

Shanaeri Rynale · Mar 15, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

If pve is about having the 1337est lightbringer comparable skills in the future, I will quit gw.

I LIKE the balanced sort of pve.

Same here, I really, really want nice balanced mobs in PvE. Alas thats so much work i'm not sure it will happen. We can dream tho..
Back onto all things mesmer. The only real option I can see as not having an adverse effect on PvP is PvE only mesmer skills. But then again that opens up a whole new can of worms.

It will be interesting to see how this is addressed, as it will give us a nice insight into how Ch4 will operate

Priest Of Sin · Mar 15, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

What about a line of skills that did bonus damage to monsters? Such as:

Conjure Phantasm
Target foe suffers from -5 health degeneration for X seconds. If target foe was a monster or summoned creature, that foe suffers and additional -5 health degeneration per second and is blinded.

Dracil · Mar 15, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Because then it gimps the monsters. Watch out, because Anet may then balance the monsters by giving them "Monster skill: Target foe's Domination attribute is set to 0. This hex cannot be removed"

noblepaladin · Mar 16, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

I think the best way to make a balance is to make skills that are very useful in PvE but not so useful in PvP. Barrage is a perfect example. Virtually all rangers play barragers (except in specialized trap groups), because it takes advantage of the AI. In PvP, nobody bunches up against AoE attacks. Meteor shower is another example. The long cast time and high cost makes it a poor PvP skill. Also, human players will run away from meteor showers. However, along with Searing Flames, Meteor Shower is the best PvE nuking spell in the game.

The reason why the holy trinity is so good in PvE is because they take advantage of the AI, particularly the tendancy for the AI to bunch together. They are not overpowered in PvP because human players know better. So what the Mesmer needs are skills that are useful against the AI, but pretty bad against a smart opponent. Perhaps an AoE spell that only damages enemies that are attacking or casting a spell? In PvP, half the time people are running around, in PvE monsters are always swinging away.

Mistrust is a decent PvE oriented spell. The AI stupidly casts right through it, and it does some nice AoE damage. More skills that are similar. Maybe an AoE variant of Clumsiness that makes all adjacent foes take 50 damage (but does not interrupt attack, to keep it from begin too powerful). Also, the Mesmer can use a PvE oriented elite. Most of the Mesmer elites are not that great for PvE (except maybe Echo, but the mesmer lacks any good skill to echo).

Draiyne Valure · Mar 16, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Oh dear, I'm not sure if making the AI even stupider just to give Mesmers a PvE role is the way to go; it seems cheap and nasty. The suggestions of either making the mobs smaller and smarter or large with "leaders" is a good idea.

I think also that Mesmers are the targets of "interesting" elite ideas, like Extend Conditions and Psychic Instability. These skills, whilst unique, are often specialised and rarely useful.

I agree with [Avarre]; I can't believe that none of A-Net have played as a mesmer in PvE, whether for fun or for testing. Surely they must have noticed the problems evident.

It's a tough one. Can't wait to see the changes made (if any) and can't wait to see the player response. If nothing else, I think it will be hilarious.

antialias02 · Mar 16, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draiyne Valure

I think also that Mesmers are the targets of "interesting" elite ideas, like Extend Conditions and Psychic Instability. These skills, whilst unique, are often specialised and rarely useful.

I agree with this sentiment. Every class has its share of useless elites, but you're right in that Mesmers seem to get more of them.

Obey The Cat · Mar 16, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

100% agree noblepaladin. mesmer could be a pvp-only class.

They even nerfed the one and only pve elite: energy surge.

noblepaladin · Mar 16, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draiyne Valure

Oh dear, I'm not sure if making the AI even stupider just to give Mesmers a PvE role is the way to go; it seems cheap and nasty. The suggestions of either making the mobs smaller and smarter or large with "leaders" is a good idea.

I think also that Mesmers are the targets of "interesting" elite ideas, like Extend Conditions and Psychic Instability. These skills, whilst unique, are often specialised and rarely useful.

I agree with [Avarre]; I can't believe that none of A-Net have played as a mesmer in PvE, whether for fun or for testing. Surely they must have noticed the problems evident.

It's a tough one. Can't wait to see the changes made (if any) and can't wait to see the player response. If nothing else, I think it will be hilarious.

They shouldn't make the AI stupider, but they should give the Mesmer more skills that take advantage of the current AI. It is extremely difficult to make a good AI (if they do make a really great one, it would probably require too much backend processing to make the AI "think" or they will have to manually program in skill combos). Also, it is probably too much work to reprogram all the monsters in the three chapters of the game. Let's face it, all PvE builds take advantage of the current AI, nobody plays an exact PvP build. All the classes that don't have some gimmick skill (such as Mesmers and Assassins) are rarely used because they are simply ineffective when compared with other classes.

Imagine what would happen if Rangers lose Barrage, their gimmick PvE skill. Their role would turn into interrupter or trapper. Their single target attacks (which are effective in PvP) are insignficant compared to the power of an Elementalist or MM. Rather than getting a dedicated interrupter, groups would just get nukers that have knockdown (Meteor Shower) or let the tanks take an interrupt too. The PvE Ranger is effective because of one skill.

Mesmers don't have any skill that really takes advantage of the current AI. Empathy is probably the closest one, it does decent damage because the AI attacks right through it. However, being single target, it is insignificant compared to what other classes can do.

Given the current state of the AI, Mesmers will never be preferred over the other classes. If you make mobs smaller, people will just exploit other AI weaknesses (Only 3 powerful enemies in a group? Bring one Broadhead Arrow ranger and take out the caster, now it's 2v7). Mesmer interrupt and shutdown is weak compared to something like Dazed (the AI does not know how to deal with Dazed). Mesmer skills seem to be designed to pressure human players (PvP). Their interrupts have long-term negative consequences. Unless PvE battles last very long like PvP battles (at least a few minutes), the Mesmer's nasty long-term effects are never felt. However, I am sure most players are against having every fight last 5-10 minutes.

Blackest Rose · Mar 16, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

All I know is that I love my mesmer since I did THK with hechies way back in early prophecies days but I'm afraid to say that I haven't played her in months....

It's a pity but I'm sure I'll get back to her someday...
Taking down and enemy with degen is soo leet.... it's like "I can kill you without even touching you" kind of leet

There's no fanfare about mesmers .... it's a real pity.
Nowadays the closest I get to them is my echo nuker......

TGgold · Mar 17, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracil

Because then it gimps the monsters. Watch out, because Anet may then balance the monsters by giving them "Monster skill: Target foe's Domination attribute is set to 0. This hex cannot be removed"

It sure is a good think Conjure's in Illusion then, isn't it?

Anyway. I like mesmers as they are, but I would like to see some minor buffs. Mainly to the point where things get an *adjacent* or *nearby* range added to them.

Honestly, in PvP, how often is the other team adjacent to eachother? In PvE though, it happens kind of frequently. It'd add a little extra *oomph*

Or, of course, they could make enemies not have limitless energy. That'd be a start.

red13xx · Mar 17, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I think mesmers are pretty much "jack of all trades" character and that is what makes them pretty fantastic but it is also why they are not a direly needed class in most missions( as with sin and ritualist to some extent.) But anyway what I think should be done is to make some underused aoe skills from other classes synergize well with fast casting. I agree only on this point. I dont think a big aoe buff to mesmer is needed. Mesmers have arcane echo and echo and they can copy nukes. The ability to copy skills, right there proves that they can be devistating in pve( they can also copy an elite skill from other players and be a bit versatile.) And also with the new slew of armor increasing skills they can tank for a significant amount of time from what I noticed.
I think the big thing in PVE is actually the fact that most players favor classes with rebirth so what really hurts the mesmer is that me/mo skills dont synergize really well because the lack of direct damage. they probably make good protection mesmers in certain situation but most players favor monk better and will get turned off on the whole thing. I think though if they added a skill that belong to mesmers that can rebirth with some side affects it would encourage them to play other secondaries and groups may want them in there party more often.

Zonzai · Mar 17, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braggi

No, that's a big part of the problem, as degeneration damage is limited to 20 health/sec. Avarre already mentioned the trend to more hitpoints with enemies - everybody else will just counter that with higher dps. A necro may be slower, but at least capable of dishing out mass degen... ANet probably can't just pimp the Mesmer with mass degen here, because the roles are different.

You could already note the turning point in Prophecies, where early degen was a great way to soften up or even kill targets fast, while later you needed a lot more additional damage events (frag spike...) to still have an impact that way. One of the offered solutions were hexes with additional effects when starting or ending.

Why do I use the primary class? To make use of the intrinsic skill (most usefull for interrupting specific overpowered monk/ boss skills) or to use runes and squeeze some more damage or duration out of the build. Fast Cast is situational, degen hits the ceiling anyway,... So Mesmer is still a good secondary PvE class atm, but you rarely need a primary mesmer for most of it.

Not going to argue with you on that. My post was more sarcasm than actual relevant thought. I hear that happens when you're inebriated.